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    1. Announcements, meetings and other resources

      Including why this site is not for newly diagnosed low-risk men trying to select an initial treatment.

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  2. ADVANCED PROSTATE CANCER FORUMS

    1. Primary hormone therapy

      Early or late, long or short, intermittent or continuous, radiation or not, one or more agents (ADT1, ADT2, ADT3, ...)

      197
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    2. Secondary hormone therapy

      When primary hormone therapy fails, this may be the next step.

      36
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    3. Castrate Resistant Prostate Cancer

      CRPC - Testosterone is at castrate level, but the cancer is again advancing.

      86
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    4. Metastatic

      Evidence is found in bones or soft tissue through imaging or pain.

      70
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    5. Very high risk

      Men with very high risk may need more aggressive treatment than most. What indicates very high risk?

      23
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    6. New agents

      Drugs and other treatments of the future - under trial or newly approved.

      185
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    7. Every little bit helps

      Some drugs given for other conditions have anti-cancer effects.
      Some foods have anti-cancer effects.
      Exercise certainly helps
      An anti-prostate cancer cocktail may be in order.

      150
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    8. Radiation, diagnostic imaging, bones and other prostate cancer topics

      All types of radiotherapy, diagnostic imaging, other diagnostics and anything else on prostate cancer not covered in other forums.
      (If it's not about prostate cancer it should be in The Lounge.)

      218
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    9. Articles on other sites

      These articles are not on JimJimJimJim.com. Click on a link in one of these topics and you will be taken to another site where we have no control over what is posted.

      271
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  3. MEMBER'S STORIES AND NEEDS

    1. My story

      Members tell of their own history.

      288
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    2. Any suggestions?

      What should I ask my doctor about on the next visit?

      105
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    3. The lounge

      Any topic you like goes in here.
      No defamation, please.
      Nothing offensive, please.

      306
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  • Posts

    • Patrick Turner
      Hi Patrick, For nearly all of my (also) 70 yrs I believed exactly as you do. Fat was the cause of heart disease and cancer. I can show you graphs to "prove" it! Unfortunately, my healthy diet did not keep me safe, however I've long been a listener to The Science Show on ABC RN and heard a talk by Prof Paul Davies (an astrophysicist who was head hunted to lead a multidisciplinary anti-cancer team) and he said that a ketogenic diet appeared to hold a lot of promise. I'd never heard of it and, being a high-fat diet, was absolutely the LAST thing I wanted to do. But when the PSA had risen soon after surgery and was rising again soon after radiation, I decided to look  into it more carefully—and the SCIENCE made sense to a retired engineer.   I was much impressed by Paul Davies basic explanation of what cancer is based on the fact our DNA has pyramid structure with growth control added on top of pyramid, and plain growth on base, which all living things began with. So cells just grew and were only limited by available nutrients, so 400 million years ago, our ancestors were unintelligent "clumps of brown junk" growing on rocks in wet places, and giving off O2 which was a byproduct. O2 levels grew and grew, and over countless years some brown blobs grew by eating other brown blobs, and some utilised 02 because lots of it was around, and it likes to combine with many things; oxidation process is extremely common, and we are lucky that photosynthesis happens with plants absorbing CO2, giving back O2. But when controls over growth breakdown in our cells, you get brown blobs of junk - cancer - and calorie restriction probably slows down growth. So ketotonic whatever, serious calorie reduction, ie, partial starvation will certainly prolong life but it may one where you feel so tired and depressed that life has no quality.    1. Every carb is converted to glucose (some much more quickly than others)   But without carbs, your energy must come from protein and fats, and the body will break down muscle with body fat to get blood sugar levels somewhere near what it wants. There's always going to be glucose.    2. Cancer loves glucose. Your latest PsMa scan only works because cancer cells soak up vastly (I think it's 17 times) more glucose than normal cells, even when it's the radioactive sugar you were injected with.   I emailed a research guy at ANU who was investigating glucose blocking and he said its almost impossible to achieve because so many things can be converted to glucose. Prostate cancer needs hardly any glucose, which is why I've had it for so long yet I may be years away from it killing me. Just a whiff of sugar is enough, and a whiff of testosterone, and if it cannot get testosterone, it makes its own, and so Pca has this horrible reputation for being incurable unless **ALL** prostate cells are removed from the body very early, maybe when Psa moves from 1.0 to 2.0. The researcher told me not to hold my breath waiting for a glucose blocker medicine to become cancer therapy. This was 3 years ago.   I am not sure radioactive sugar in solution was injected for PsMa test. Sure, a ligand chemical was used to tie Gallium in solution to where Pda is being made, but I am not aware Pca soaks up 17 times more glucose than normal cells. Bitter almonds kernels with high amygdalin were ground up and amygdalin extracted to make Leatrile which was used in 1950s as therapy. Big doses were injected, 1,000mg at a time, about what is in 1Kg of apricot kernels. The clinics were closed, exposed as frauds, and ppl hung on to belief, and ppll said if you eat 30 bitter almonds a day you'd get 20mg amygdalin which would run around your blood circulation and be absorbed by any cells wanting glucose, including cancer, and the cyanide molecule in amygdalin would slowly kill cancer. I did this over a long time but it made ZERO difference to Psa just another pile of BS.      3. A glucose spike causes an insulin spike. 4. An insulin spike "pushes" glucose into cells, especially cancer cells that are primed to take advantage of the feast. Insulin also triggers production of hormones (such as IGF-1) that promote tumor growth as well as TAF (tumor angiogenesis factor) hormones that stimulate growth of the tumor's blood supply (angiogenesis).   It is impossible to not use insulin. Diabetics who cannot make insulin need to shoot up with insulin. I've known some who just can't adapt to the discipline, they are damn well gonna keep eating sugary shit no matter what, and booze too much, and laze about and do SFA.   So by cutting down the carbs and eating a high-fat diet you stop force feeding the tumors and give any other treatment it's best chance. No, you won't have low blood sugar as the body can make what it needs (gluconucleogenesis) for those parts that need glucose. But most of our system can work perfectly well (or even better) fuelled by ketones made by the liver from fatty acids. But don't take my word for it. Watch this EXCELLENT talk by Dr Colin Champ. He's a radiation oncologist treating mainly breast cancer patients and is interested in nutrition. Note that his talk is titled AUGMENTING Cancer Therapy with Diet.   I may have extended the time I have to live by becoming virtually antisocial in my eating habits. It is probable I'd have to starve myself to a skeleton before I'd make much difference to whatever my cancer is going to do. Most ppl in USA are too big, way too lazy, and not one is ever going to eat whale blubber everyday in freezing conditions like eskimos or live like Indians or like our own indigenous tribes where being horribly hungry most days was normal, and being riddled with parasites, and dying by 50, often 20 years before cancer shows up. the experts of the past made all these studies of primitive ppl before all these old ways of life were corrupted by Arsole Food Products P/L began to sell their sugary crap. Sugar is now killing many Oz indigenous ppl because they get addicted, its cheap, profits are made by shops not heavily regulated, and if they were regulated, there would be no shops, so outback communities would starve, but maybe live slightly longer. All our own local supermarkets should be heavily regulated, and if they were, they'd go broke overnight. Nobody can be perfect about diet, and even when ppl are perfect eaters, and adopt the diet which is best to make cancer slow down and make chemo or RT more effective, it may not work for all. And ppl are wanting to live so long, and they'd prefer to not die at all, but our DNA has other ideas, no matter what we want, and so death comes and its unavoidable. That young dude Colin Champ should be interviewed when he's 60, and just been diagnosed with Pca. See what he says then.    Did you listen to Dr Mark Moyad recently? One of the world's leaders in prostate cancer treatment, he said he was "excited" by the potential of a keto diet to "help suppress tumor growth".   WOW!  The fact that he's excited makes me excited  :=)   I don't get excited unless somebody proves it really works in the real world and our life is not made into a living hell to achieve some "potential" benefit, rather than an actual benefit.      Its common sense that if you starve yourself, sure, you starve the tumor, and when you stop starving, the tumor continues to grow a bit faster than it did while you starved.   Most "carbs" in US foods are processed foods without fibre and high in added fructose and other added sugars and sure enough many US ppl and UK and here need the sugar hit, and sure, high insulin peak, and maybe it surely speeds up some cancers. But not all. There are carbs which have low glycaemic index where they take ages to break down, brown rice, rolled oats, stone ground wholemeal grains, so that their intake does not cause huge insulin spike. Colin didn't mention these, and just what sort of high fats are best? I would guess if I eat more added olive oil to my foods I raise calories, so could reduce my intake of complex carbs with low GI. I would not do myself any harm by increasing oil and reducing my carbs.    Colin quoted his grandad at 96 who said he was able to live long by keeping away from blokes like Colin. Was he joking? just being a grumpy old bugger who hates young ppl? My mum lived to 98 with no cancers but ate every wrong food she could. She never was obese, just 20Kg too heavy between age 60 and 90. After 90, she just lost interest in food, her taste and smell sense faded down, like so many things.    It's great that you can, "be cheerful even when dying slowly", but I strongly suspect that it might be possible for you to die even more slowly—you're certainly bloody fitter than any old fart has a right to be!. And your current dietary regime shows you are the right type to make the change if convinced of the science. In fact Colin Champ points out that he can suggest almost-lethal radiation and patients will readily accept it. But if he suggests a change to their diet, they will run to get away. Very best wishes, Peter PS.  Please note that at NO TIME did I claim that a diet will lower your PSA. But I would like to put out there what I've done and what the result has been. PPS. I'm happy to help if anyone wants to contact me directly.   I am half convinced by the science and I feel unqualified to criticise Colin's efforts, but I also like to feel well and be able to cycle and mow grass and clip my infernal hedge. I really don't think I'd feel too well if I cut out my complex carbs with fibre and had a cup of olive oil instead. I also like 7 small apples. This is so much better than a litre of Coca Cola, and I don't need wine, which should only be drunk with good company with good food that is not extreme food. I don't have a social life, a wife, a dog, sons, daughters, and I don't believe family life helps cancer survival one little bit. I have witnessed so much dysfunctional family life with relatives causing each other so much pain, displeasure, dis-harmony, and plain old angst that I don't regret failing dismally with the many women I met, all hell bent on pursuing such bad habits that I ended up feeling like Colin's grandad, glad to not have lived with so many ppl I could think of right now :-). Maybe Colin's grandad just wasn't ever loved enough. I should not say that's how I feel sometimes, but who ever gets enough love?  Most of my peer group ate too much, drank too much, smoked too much, and many had terrible times with kids and wives - the Great Un-admitted Story which supports the divorce statistics and treatments for preventable disease etc. So many men and so few women ever raised a sweat, and when I ride around the ACT, I might go a fortnight without passing anyone else near my age. So many are now heading for more co-morbidities than I am saddled with.  At present, I can only go along with what treatments are available, abiraterone, and if it doesn't work, then chemo, and that won't work fully, so maybe I qualify for Lutetium, and that has dreadful side effects, and so its all uncertain, and there's no real magic yet that kills the cancer without degrading life. Just what is being positive? I am a realist, and I know I have to die, and probably from Pca. Does being a realist make me a pessimist? Is the optimist the one who takes the Egyptian Solution? ie, standing in De Nile. Everything is going to be alright they say. No it won't be, OK.  To stop myself going insane, I just hop on me bike and get going, and I don't much care what the world does. Away from the bike, I quite like ABC Classic FM, and daily lunch at a café, and I find Outlander and The Handmaids Tale  and Glitch to be good TV.    It is awkward to converse in typing, but we do get to say what we mean, and mean what we say with these letters, its what emails are, and I often prefer emails to telephone calls, and I am patrick@turneraudio.com.au I found I didn't fit into Facebook, and if ppl want to communicate, what is wrong with being themselves, and one to one? I don't mind being myself, there's nothing to hide, and since 2000 when I learnt to use a PC I have never gained an enemy, nor any hacking of my website, and I have dodged most spam and my BS detectors must be working well enough. The Best forum sites were in Usenet which unfortunately became saturated with spammers, flamers, psychopaths, trols, and most ppl were too scarred when criticised, so now the web isn't what it was, while ppl have often stayed reluctant as ever to talk to other ppl. Probably, what ppl want as much as life itself is meaningful connection, but I might say wonderment would not go astray.   Patrick Turner.   
    • PeterH
      Hi Patrick,   For nearly all of my (also) 70 yrs I believed exactly as you do. Fat was the cause of heart disease and cancer. I can show you graphs to "prove" it! Unfortunately, my healthy diet did not keep me safe, however I've long been a listener to The Science Show on ABC RN and heard a talk by Prof Paul Davies (an astrophysicist who was head hunted to lead a multidisciplinary anti-cancer team) and he said that a ketogenic diet appeared to hold a lot of promise. I'd never heard of it and, being a high-fat diet, was absolutely the LAST thing I wanted to do. But when the PSA had risen soon after surgery and was rising again soon after radiation, I decided to look  into it more carefully—and the SCIENCE made sense to a retired engineer. 1. Every carb is converted to glucose (some much more quickly than others) 2. Cancer loves glucose. Your latest PsMa scan only works because cancer cells soak up vastly (I think it's 17 times) more glucose than normal cells, even when it's the radioactive sugar you were injected with. 3. A glucose spike causes an insulin spike. 4. An insulin spike "pushes" glucose into cells, especially cancer cells that are primed to take advantage of the feast. Insulin also triggers production of hormones (such as IGF-1) that promote tumor growth as well as TAF (tumor angiogenesis factor) hormones that stimulate growth of the tumor's blood supply (angiogenesis). So by cutting down the carbs and eating a high-fat diet you stop force feeding the tumors and give any other treatment it's best chance. No, you won't have low blood sugar as the body can make what it needs (gluconucleogenesis) for those parts that need glucose. But most of our system can work perfectly well (or even better) fuelled by ketones made by the liver from fatty acids. But don't take my word for it. Watch this EXCELLENT talk by Dr Colin Champ. He's a radiation oncologist treating mainly breast cancer patients and is interested in nutrition. Note that his talk is titled AUGMENTING Cancer Therapy with Diet.     Did you listen to Dr Mark Moyad recently? One of the world's leaders in prostate cancer treatment, he said he was "excited" by the potential of a keto diet to "help suppress tumor growth".   WOW!  The fact that he's excited makes me excited  :=)   It's great that you can, "be cheerful even when dying slowly", but I strongly suspect that it might be possible for you to die even more slowly—you're certainly bloody fitter than any old fart has a right to be!. And your current dietary regime shows you are the right type to make the change if convinced of the science. In fact Colin Champ points out that he can suggest almost-lethal radiation and patients will readily accept it. But if he suggests a change to their diet, they will run to get away.   Very best wishes   Peter   PS.  Please note that at NO TIME did I claim that a diet will lower your PSA. But I would like to put out there what I've done and what the result has been. PPS. I'm happy to help if anyone wants to contact me directly.
    • alanbarlee
      Nicely put, Patrick! We're all heading in the same direction: our lives WILL end somehow, sometime and somewhere. It's inspiring to read your philosophy, which boils down to  'stay as fit and healthy as the hand you've been dealt allows, live in the present, and soak up all that makes life enjoyable, for whatever time you may have. Cheers, Alan    
    • Patrick Turner
      I am always wary of anyone who says diet can lower Psa. Fancy words like Ketogenic don't much help me because there is no list of what is safe to eat, to the exclusion of all other things.  From what little I know, Pca is one of the "hard" cancers because grows into hard lumps and mostly grows slowly because it does not take much sugar from the bloodstream. Sever dieting to eliminate sugar does not much reduce sugar levels in blood. The keenest vegan who is skinny as a broom handle and who knows sugar is poison and that there's little he can buy at Big Supermarket will have an average blood sugar level which would easily provide enough nourishment for 10 times the average size of total prostate cancer tumors.   I have been on a good diet without added sugar, wine, chocolate, and 1,001 things that most ppl don't like to admit they eat. I am so fanatical it makes me a weirdo, and at age 70, I ride a bike 240km a week, regular as clockwork. My cancer probably began in 2004. But it was a Gleason 9 by 2009, Psa only 5.0, and back then DRE showed no hard lumps in PG, and pissing often and not having any ejaculate didn't begin until 2008, the year before diagnosis. One GP foolishly said in 2008, "You're too healthy to have cancer", and I told him I was waiting for my turn for it to happen, because it killed my father, a sister, and affected another sister who still survives, and killed a few friends of mine, and most of my mother's friends.    I am quite addicted to green and uncooked vegetables. I gave up all meats years ago although I have a few eggs, and 200gms of fish a week. Its close the Nathan Pritikin's diet, my energy is from 10% fat, ( olive oil only ),10% protein, 80% complex carbs such as ground almonds boiled with quinoa. I see what others eat, and its about twice the calories I eat. Doctors are very pleased to seem me slim and dressed in lycra, resting HR 50, BMI now 24, and blood tests all normal except for Psa. But my oncologist saw my latest PsMa gallium68 scan and said "This is a HORRIBLE scan", and he was more upset than I was, because he thought I was winning, but no, I ain't winning at all, I'm riddled with Pca. It is naïve to ever think you can beat Pca, even when Psa numbers make it look like you have. I've known many fellows whose Psa went very low, then bounced right back up. Anyway, I have cycled 130km so far this week, maybe 40km today, 70km Sunday and I have a nice spring and summer to look forward to and I do not need to change my lifestyle one bit, unless the bone mets get painful. I've lost count of ppl I have known who tried to diet but failed to adopt a different way of life which could be argued to be anti-social. All had woefully low will power, they had no control over their urge to consume and they remained slightly or much overweight, they all could never ride a bike with me, and they all spent too much money on crap. I doubt my frugality has made much difference my Pca progress which probably will kill me. During my times in hospitals getting radiated or other treatments, I saw a wide variety of ppl of all ages, sizes, and conditions, and only a handful were cheerful when I spoke to them; the most cheerful was a guy who worked in a palliative care place, and he got Pca. I often say g'day to all ppl I meet, and quite a few just ignore me, or demonstrate they are deeply depressed. But a minority would ignore their damn mobile phones and find themselves glad to engage in conversation. There's a large number of ppl unable to talk to anyone, with many suffering PTSD from life. I am obviously not one. But I find I can be cheerful even when dying slowly. I'm busy writing a website, cycling, and stopping my house looking like its unoccupied, and one day I'll just wave 'bye.   Soon, I'll have a vego sandwich and a pot of green tea for lunch before the 40km ride. Breakfast was a pot of green tea and 4 x 250mg abiraterone tablets at 8am. Its now time for an apple. I'm now 2Kg above the 81Kg I was at 30, and I really should be slightly less because muscle mass shrinks with age, and the body fat % should remain constant, maybe 15%. But I did go to 102Kg at age 57, from 82Kg at 45, and that's a daily gain of only 5 grams, and to haul myself back to betterment I needed to make drastic and permanent change to my life. I began my second inclusion of cycling in 2006, and I lost 18Kg in 6 months and never put it back on. I figured I've ridden about 120,000km in 11 years, with most of the time being chemically castrated with ADT. Hardly anyone overtakes me on a bicycle, and when a younger one does, I may ask "what took you so long?" :-) Keep well, which I know is difficult because life is a temporary arrangement ;-), Patrick Turner.       
    • Patrick Turner
      Hmm, The Reluctant Brotherhood activities.......     when I tried to watch this, I had a mild visual failure attack and overwhelming thought I could be doing something else. I myself admit I am a Reluctant Member of the species 'homo rectus' which has so far spread far and wide across the planet, and I believe the scientist who discovered the species was right when he said " This species is getting about tryna wreck tha joint ". I began at about age 20 realizing that so many erections of belief and ideas made it very difficult for us all in the short term and long term. I hesitate to think what it might be like in 3017. I often think that as soon as someone invents dirt cheap electricity or dirt cheap anything else, say houses, then blokes will just use much more electricity and buy 50 houses when just one small one is all he needs. We'll make sure we'll gather more junk around us, and make the mistake yet again that an electric Maserati will make us happy. One small step for a man, one giant leap backwards for the future. I am quite happy with a bicycle. It seems to minimize my "co-morbidities" to the point where I am extremely healthy while riddled with incurable cancer.  Keep well, Patrick Turner.  
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