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Kezza2

Side effects of Xtandi

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Kezza2

Just seeking advice from others taking Xtandi (enzalutimide).  I have just started my seventh week on Xtandi having been on an abiraterone trial for the previous two years until it failed.  I find I am having episodes of dropping blood pressure for no apparent reason, everything will be going along OK then suddenly BP will drop, for example today's episode it dropped to 120/65 and pulse rate jumped to 98 and I began to sweat without me moving.  I went to the local hospital when these episodes first started. and they did ECG and bloods, and pronounced me fit and well and sent me home.  I see my Onc next monday so maybe she will have a reason.

My question is has anybody else taking Xtandi experienced similar side effects, or any other side effects for that matter

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TONAR

Hi Kezza,

 

I took Xtandi for about 9 months (until it too failed).  I had no noticeable side effects at all.

 

What else are you on?  Denosumab perhaps?

 

Cheers,

 

Tony

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tonymax

Kezza,

I have been on enza + Lucrin for almost 4 years now - 4 tablets enza daily

Main side effect is some extra fatigue compared to previous Lucrin alone.

Have also been on Micardis 80mg for high blood pressure and even with that my BP is normally about 150/90.

I have not had any low blood pressure problems.

Tony Max

 

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Patrick Turner
22 minutes ago, Kezza2 said:

Just seeking advice from others taking Xtandi (enzalutimide).  I have just started my seventh week on Xtandi having been on an abiraterone trial for the previous two years until it failed. 

Hi Kezza2 and to everyone else.

I've had ADT since 2010, and in 2011 I began to get bad hypotension where I'd feel dizzy after standing, after sitting for awhile.

This got worse with Abiraterone and I got a dizzy spell on my bicycle, but I rested for 2 minutes, then carried on.

Docs said its a blood pressure regulation thing where BP goes low. Docs have no clue how to fix it. But side effect of Abi is 3 different

heart related issues, so if a man is crook before taking Abi, he may crooker while taking it. My Abi is wearing off now after 8 months, and maybe I go to Enzo ( Xtandi ) and see if I can grab a few more months before chemo etc.

I looked up Abi online it seems it makes a man secret sodium, Na, and also potassium, K, goes low, so I ate more English spinach and mushrooms and that fixed the K levels if they were low, and a blood test confirmed that. But low Na levels meant I should use more salt, and I was a low salt eater, and after lot more salt and a large jar of Vegemite over a month, the hypo-dizzy-crap has lessened and I am

continuing to cycle 200km+ per week regularly. But during hot heatwaves this summer the hypotension was not good, and I could not sleep until 1AM when house cooled a bit, so I wasn't sleeping well, and sweated huge amounts on bike.

But I was regarded by docs as super fit when diagnosed 2009, and have stayed that way. BMI 24, resting HR 48 and recovery after a severely gut busting ride is fine, and at 70, I am faster than all the other 70yo in a cycling group and they all have normal testosterone levels because they have not had any Pca treatments. I'm averaging 24kph on country roads with plenty of hills and if I hadn't been treated for Pca with ADT et all I'd be about 3kph faster.

Technically, I prove a man does not need testosterone. It has a benefit in the cycling group where occasionally a foolhardy lady turns up for the 60 to 80km ride. After the young blokes have ridden away from us oldies, and if the lady is 35, and fit, she may just keep up with me on hills, and so its then a pleasure to ride with the lady, rather than be in the de-facto race that occurs whenever 2 or more men ride "together". ( pardon the diversion ).  

It seems to me that keeping fit, not just healthy, and having a mainly vego diet does me good, and makes me strong so I don't suffer the worst of side effects. Enzo may be more difficult to get used to and if my fitness has increased my ability to survive side effects then it may happen with Enzo. I won't know until I begin taking Enzo. If Enzo is all there is, there's no choice. 

Fitness is a strange thing, and it stimulates the immune system to work well, except that the IS sees the cancer as friendly cells, so my guess is that the cancer may get assistance to live better like other friendly cells, and unless someone carried out serious research on

my blood before, during, after exercise, with DNA profiling etc, nobody really knows if fitness slows your cancer. Fitness makes you more realistic about death and there's no point IMHO to not exercise to find out if cancer growth slows down, Ie, Psa rise is slowed.

Between February to May in 2017, I had double knee replacement, and wasn't able to ride. I walked a km on crutches when I could. But that wasn't anything like a typical 70km ride. Psa went relentlessly upwards as the Lucrin and Cosadex failed. So I may as well keep cycling, and not worry if I drop dead on the bike. I won't worry at all after I drop dead. 

Doctors are overjoyed to see me turn up at hospitals dressed in Lycra, and I don't whinge about everything. I'm among the 5% of patients who appear to take all the advice about health and fitness. Yea, he looks good, shame about the gallium scans! I might be a good looking corpse as well. This Pca thing is something I can't win at, OK, so when I gotta go, OK, I'll go, but I like to keep everyone smiling around me, and be nice to medicos before I depart.   

Patrick Turner. 

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Charles (Chuck) Maack

What would have been interesting is what was your blood pressure readings before what you call "dropped" as well as your pulse rate?

A systolic level of 120 or less is normal/over 120 to 129 is considered elevated but not yet "high." A diastolic level of 65 is great.  And for pulse rate, anywhere from 60 to 100 is within appropriate range; those who regularly work out could have the lower side of this range but others within this range are normal counts. It would appear your 120/65 would be where you would want to be rather than any higher, and your pulse rate  appears in the norm for most people.  I was on Zytiga for just sort of 6 years with no appreciable concerns, and on Xtandi for a few months with the same lack of concern.  More recently, with Xtandi providing no relief from slow PSA elevation, gave up on it and recently returned to Zytiga to see if it will "kick in" again - this can happen as it did when I first started Zytiga some years ago.  PSA dropped a bit, then elevated, stopped Zytiga, learned it can "kick back in" so went back on, and it was from there that Zytiga was effective for  nearly six years.  

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Kezza2

Thanks for your input Chuck.  I am not convinced that Zytiga had actually stopped working, as the symptoms were unusual.  After two years with no problems, suddenly I had a number of lymph glands in my throat swell and were very tender to the touch.  A biopsy found PCa in them, but who knows it could have been there all along and the rapid swelling and tenderness due to something unrelated.  On research, my current problem could be related to low potassium levels which I would have thought they would have picked up, but maybe not.  I am off for blood test now and will raise the possibility of resuming Zytiga with my Med Onc on monday.

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Clive

A very timely question for me. Yesterday and to a much lesser extent today I have been 'light headed'. Yesterday I went back to bed and it had lessened to a point where I could stand up by the afternoon. A year ago I had a worse but similar feeling after taking a drug to reduce the size of my prostate. (At that time I had not been diagnosed with Metastatic Prostate cancer.) I collapsed in a heart rehab training room in a private hospital at the time. (It was my wife who was undergoing the heart rehab.) I was completely unconscious. I was stretchered to a ward and they quickly diagnosed that I had dangerously low blood pressure. I immediately stopped taking the drug. The prostate cancer nurse thought this recent dizziness was also caused by low blood pressure and that next time I get the symptoms I should contact the hospital research team or my own GP. I am currently in an international research trial in which I may be on enzalutimide with ADT or may be on a placebo with ADT. Looks like I am on the real thing. 

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Patrick Turner

I see that some ppl have far greater reactions to drugs for Pca than I seem to have had so far. I'm 70, young compared to someone 85, and I consider myself somewhat robust, as I am presently cycling 220km a week. I've always been robust, and ppl thought I was "the man they can't root, shoot, or electrocute" and I was jollied by their powers of perception :-).

If I have to begin Xtandi, I will, if Zytiga is failing, and maybe I'll handle the low BP and increase salt intake to counter it, they say Zytiga makes a man "secrete" sodium, ie, piss it out more salty pee. Would Xtandi do a similar thing? Hoo Noze? ; I'll cross the bridge  when I get there. It is interesting that Chuck stopped Zytiga when it failed, tried Xtandi, then went back to Zytiga which gave 6 more years.

Of course what happens in the Chucks of this world may not happen in the Clives, or the Patricks, but our discussions here help to lead us out of the fog of ignorance, and I am grateful  to know you all.

Patrick Turner.

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Roscoaus2000

I changed to Enzalutamide (Xtandi) when Bitaculamide stopped working after 12 months. I thought it was wonderful, no hot flashes, no pains. However, I had one or to momentary memory losses which I ignored because they were only for seconds. However following a 5k walk I had a mild seizure. (A side effect listed on the printed advice) and after brain scans by CT and MRI it was suggested by gp that it was probably dehydration. I immediately consulted my oncologist who stopped the Xtandi. I changed to Aberiterone in April and I feel wonderful. PSA unmeasurable for 6 months. No side effects. No pain in any joints. Improved circulation in fingers. Keeping active walking and golfing. I pray that my next blood test next week is good also.

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Kevin Martin

I took enzal. for 96 weeks as part of a clinical trial in conjunction with Lucrin and 39 days of radiation after 16 weeks. I feel very fortunate though that i have been in remission since March '17. I had gleason  9 and mungrel stuff in pelvic lymph nodes that was zapped during radiation. Bone scans are clear as well. I have been off the treatment now for 30 weeks and still suffer from the side effects that I have had since the treatment started. They are fatigue, (always tired), hot flushes though not as severe now, muscle weakness, fluid retention in feet and lower legs, manboobs, shrunken penis and testes, cough. All of the above are on the enzal. list. Lucrin effects are some of above plus depression, (now gone) and signs of diabetes. Don't sleep that well either. I put my good results down to the clinical trial of enzal. though reading what others have said it is not suitable for everyone. We are all different to the response.

Last blood test, 14 weeks ago, has PSA at undetectable and testosterone 1.8. Next tests in 2 weeks.

Oncol. told me last time that the above bloods were ideal, will be interesting what the next tests show.

Started playing golf again last May, not too good though, get too tired even though I am in a cart.

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Patrick Turner

I had only 6 months Psa reduction with Cosadex added to Lucrin in 2016, and I remain on Lucrin.

I started abiraterone which gave 8 mths Psa reduction, and when that stopped working early this year the docs would not allow me to go on enzalutamide, because of Medicare rules. So I began Docetaxel and after 15 weeks Psa went from 12 to 40, and it was declared a failure and I had my No 1 Lu177 infusion 11 days ago, and I'm now able to cycle 60km at good average speed, and side effects were minimal but I might end up with a dry mouth later, like thousands of ppl who get RT to head and neck area.  

Rodger has been completely exterminated, but sex does not matter any more. Testosterone is still a poison in my body until proven otherwise and remission seems very unlikely. But I am still alive 9 years after diagnosis and life is good. If Lu177 does not kill my countless bone mets, l might have radium223. It is far from over yet.

Patrick Turner.

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Charles (Chuck) Maack
16 hours ago, Roscoaus2000 said:

I changed to Enzalutamide (Xtandi) when Bitaculamide stopped working after 12 months. I thought it was wonderful, no hot flashes, no pains. However, I had one or to momentary memory losses which I ignored because they were only for seconds. However following a 5k walk I had a mild seizure. (A side effect listed on the printed advice) and after brain scans by CT and MRI it was suggested by gp that it was probably dehydration. I immediately consulted my oncologist who stopped the Xtandi. I changed to Aberiterone in April and I feel wonderful. PSA unmeasurable for 6 months. No side effects. No pain in any joints. Improved circulation in fingers. Keeping active walking and golfing. I pray that my next blood test next week is good also.

I expect you are also prescribed Prednisone 5mg twice daily to accompany the Abiraterone acetate/Zytiga?  Are you also still prescribed an LHRH agonist (often continued despite moving to Zytiga or Xtandi)? 

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Roscoaus2000

Yes,Prednisolone 2-5mg after meal.Zoladex implant 3 monthly and denosamab injection monthly. I take the 2 Zytiga 500mg 1/2 hr. before breakfast and the Prednisolone after breakfast.

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Kevin Martin

Patrick, I really admire your attitude to your prostate problem, you seem to be a typical Australian fighter who refuses to throw in the towel. We here all have our problems, some more than others.

I am amazed just how far you ride your bike some days, you must be a fit man to do that.

I wish you all the best for the future, even though it is a ?.

KM

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Patrick Turner
6 hours ago, Roscoaus2000 said:

and denosamab injection monthly

When I was taking Zytiga, I was also put on bi-monthly denosumab injects because the oncologist said it helped prevent bone mets forming as well as maintain bone density which declines more when on ADT.

Well, I had 3 shots of deno, and then I got a sore lower right jaw ache. This would not go away, and with all these drugs I was on there was a danger that if I had any dental extraction the bone would not heal, and lead to a chronic infection. Well, my very perceptive lady dentist took a long hard look at my jaw and found a small lesion in skin on inside of lower jaw, and she was able to poke  probe into the lesion, like a small cut about 2mm long, and she could rub bare bone so there was no soft tissue covering the bone at that spot. I'd already suspected it was beginning of some jaw necrosis ( bone death ) that has low probability of 2% with normal healthy ppl, but with men on ADT for many years the probability can be 50%, so I had asked her to look for signs of it, and sure enough she concluded I was right to suspect the beginning of jaw necrosis. I had a panaramic 3D CT scan that did not show enough to alarm me or the oral surgeon I consulted, but he agreed with my dentist and myself.

So I refused the next shot of deno. Now I have not checked the dose level I had, but it seemed to me I would only ever need one shot of deno which lasts 6 mths at adequate levels to get the benefit, and any more deno was not going to make anything better with stopping bone mets getting bigger.

I had also had an infusion of Aclasta in 2013, or zelodronic acid, but its effect is longer lasting, so any additional deno later can make jaw necrosis even more likely. I did also read a German study that said bone density manipulation drugs did not prevent bone mets forming or progressing.

Anyway, when I next saw my onco, a registra also was there, and I said why I refused more deno.

"Ah, so ya got Deno jaw" they chuckled. Yep, I had it, and these docs were familiar with it. But now 5 months have passed, and no more jaw ache ( unless I speak too much bullshit ) and no more hole in mouth skin and seems like my body has dealt with the minor bit of dead bone. Pictures online were alaming with bare bone of jaw exposed where there was a hole in skin maybe 2cm in dia. 

I lost a molar at 19, and another at 63. I now spend about $1,100 pa on having teeth cleaned and examined with 3 visits to dentist per year. There are cheaper dentists, but cost is not the concern, because all previous male dentists I attended were clumsy and blind and who did not understand "pain free procedure". The ladies are better doing fine work in mouths it seems. 

If I were you, I'd be very careful about Denosumab. 

Patrick Turner.

 

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Patrick Turner
5 hours ago, Kevin Martin said:

I wish you all the best for the future, even though it is a ?.

Indeed, a "goodness knows what"

Cycling is easier than it seems to be because you sit down to exercise, and without jarring your old bones to bits by running. Yet I can get heart and breathing rates to absolute max and not be in pain, just exhilarated. 

I broke an ankle badly on a Matchless 500cc single in 1964, by not looking closely enough at traffic in front of me. So I was caught out badly by this "young man's curse" that creates so many regrets later in life. So after hitting a stationery car in front, I came to halt, quickly parked the bike off the road and limped to the car driver and politely told him I was responsible for his broken tail light and small scratch to his car ( an old bomb ) and I would pay for the damage fully. I asked if he could be so kind to drive me to Royal North Shore Hospital which was within a kilometer, and he agreed, and I gave him my details while he drove, and got his, he drove off. At the hospital they put on a cast, patted me on head and said "Yool berite yung fella, but yah'll get arthritis at 60", and I healed up in 6 weeks, but was unable to ever run again, which was a blessing, because I could walk OK and where everyone else ran around like chooks with head cut off, I walked and thinked, and I continued my career in building work. I also could never be called up to join an army to fight a stupid war in asia.

I didn't discover I could cycle OK until age 37, after I'd just fully paid off my house and extended it. I raced in the Canberra Cycling Club for 6 years. I wasn't a natural athlete although I trained hader than those who had room fulls of trophies. But in 1992 knee pain started so I hung up the wheels. I continued building work for a few more years by knees became so bad I stopped building and learnt electronics so I could have sit-down work. It paid badly, but I am happily frugal. I had a knee arthroscopy in 2005 which made my knees come so good I was able to cycle 110,000km between mid 2006 and end 2016. In 2008, before diagnosis with Gleason 9+9, I could average 32.6kph over 51km of not very flat highway alone, at 61, and I felt re-born.

But after 10 years of getting older, and getting altered by Pca treatments, I now can only just make 22kph average, but I often overtake younger blokes. Today I cycled over to hospital to chat in followup meet with radiation doc. I got soaked in a rain storm, but I felt fine. This doc did my EBRT in 2010, and in 1990s he raced cycles in Europe as a minor pro, so we both know about cycling, but I can't talk him into getting back on his bike to get off the extra 15kg he carries now. I did have both knees replaced in early 2017 when Psa was < 1.0 during Cosudex era. I was back on bike in 10 weeks, and I re-joined a local group I was forced to leave in 2014. I was able to go faster than most. But then at Nov 2017, Zytiga side effects kicked in with strange pulsing pains in spine and allergy to hot weather cycling, so I quit the group again and went out real early to get home before it went over 27C. The Zyto also gave me irregular HR but it was not life threatening, so I kept cycling. Chemo slowed me a lot, but i'd be slow only for first 8 days then get faster at end of chemo cycle.

The Lu177 does not seen to have affected my cycling much after a cautious week after first infusion 13 days ago. I have no major aches or pains except very mild feeling something is wrong in cervical spine - because one vertebra is chocablock full of Pca. I have not had to use any predisolone which is another pest of a thing if you take enough for long enough. It was specified while on Ztyo because the adremal gland stops making the natural cortisol so the pills just replace what is natural. But by now, my adrenal gland is unblocked, and I assume it is making cortisols and probably making enough testosterone to feed the cancer's addiction to it.

Doc said my Psa at 3 Nov, 5 days before Lu177 and 25 days after last chemo was 26. So it seems like Docet chemo just made Psa zoom up to a max of 45 and after I stopped the Psa came down to 26, and I cannot analyze the reasons any better than the docs, because now I'm in a kind of no-man's land where I wait to see what the Lu177 has done which I won't know until 13 Dec, a week or 3 before Lu177 No2. 

So I don't feel the need to take predi pills. I told the doc I wasn't, and he was OK about it. It does not make Lu177 work any better. I have lawns and housework for tomorrow, just ride 15km to cafe for lunch but I'll do a 60k ride friday, sunday, and get my usual 220km+ for the "weak".

If I am forced off the bike, so be it, but not tomorrow it seems.  

Patrick Turner. 

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Clive

Chuck, Can you please describe the circulation problem in your fingers when using Enzalutamide?

I am currently in a research trial using hormone therapy together with Enzalutamide/Placebo and currently am having pins and needles/ numbness predominantly in my right hand and foot. Also pressure on the back of my hand and sides of some fingers often leads to pain. Oncologist does not think its the treatment and my GP checked all of the stated side effects. GP is now sending me for a nerve study.  Just wondering if its a side effect that has not yet been recorded.

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Roscoaus2000
On 11/21/2018 at 8:21 PM, Patrick Turner said:

When I was taking Zytiga, I was also put on bi-monthly denosumab injects because the oncologist said it helped prevent bone mets forming as well as maintain bone density which declines more when on ADT.

Well, I had 3 shots of deno, and then I got a sore lower right jaw ache. This would not go away, and with all these drugs I was on there was a danger that if I had any dental extraction the bone would not heal, and lead to a chronic infection. Well, my very perceptive lady dentist took a long hard look at my jaw and found a small lesion in skin on inside of lower jaw, and she was able to poke  probe into the lesion, like a small cut about 2mm long, and she could rub bare bone so there was no soft tissue covering the bone at that spot. I'd already suspected it was beginning of some jaw necrosis ( bone death ) that has low probability of 2% with normal healthy ppl, but with men on ADT for many years the probability can be 50%, so I had asked her to look for signs of it, and sure enough she concluded I was right to suspect the beginning of jaw necrosis. I had a panaramic 3D CT scan that did not show enough to alarm me or the oral surgeon I consulted, but he agreed with my dentist and myself.

So I refused the next shot of deno. Now I have not checked the dose level I had, but it seemed to me I would only ever need one shot of deno which lasts 6 mths at adequate levels to get the benefit, and any more deno was not going to make anything better with stopping bone mets getting bigger.

I had also had an infusion of Aclasta in 2013, or zelodronic acid, but its effect is longer lasting, so any additional deno later can make jaw necrosis even more likely. I did also read a German study that said bone density manipulation drugs did not prevent bone mets forming or progressing.

Anyway, when I next saw my onco, a registra also was there, and I said why I refused more deno.

"Ah, so ya got Deno jaw" they chuckled. Yep, I had it, and these docs were familiar with it. But now 5 months have passed, and no more jaw ache ( unless I speak too much bullshit ) and no more hole in mouth skin and seems like my body has dealt with the minor bit of dead bone. Pictures online were alaming with bare bone of jaw exposed where there was a hole in skin maybe 2cm in dia. 

I lost a molar at 19, and another at 63. I now spend about $1,100 pa on having teeth cleaned and examined with 3 visits to dentist per year. There are cheaper dentists, but cost is not the concern, because all previous male dentists I attended were clumsy and blind and who did not understand "pain free procedure". The ladies are better doing fine work in mouths it seems. 

If I were you, I'd be very careful about Denosumab. 

Patrick Turner.

 

 

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Roscoaus2000
4 minutes ago, Roscoaus2000 said:

Thank you, Patrick, I will definitely discuss it with my doctor. Do you know Latif Malik at Canberra cancer hospital?

 

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Charles (Chuck) Maack

Hello again, Patrick.  Sorry to learn of your experience with ONJ likely contributed by both zoledronic acid as well as denosumab apparently as Xgeva.  The prostate cancer patient on androgen deprivation drugs is confronted with trying to prevent ONJ or osteoprosis WITH these medications.  So many areas involved in the treatment of prostate cancer and its side effects require decision making on the part of physician and patient as to which treatment out weighs another treatment to hopefully manage the patient's prostate cancer while at the same time preventing side effects from that management.  From what you explain about your experience, this reference may be one you found and reviewed since it reads much in the way of your experience: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5494808/ 

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Patrick Turner
On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 6:07 PM, Roscoaus2000 said:

Do you know Latif Malik at Canberra cancer hospital?

No, I don't know him/her/it. There are lots of doctors and hundreds of cancer patients, and lots of registras and I've only ever dealt with maybe up to a dozen but my oncologist is Dr Ganaleasingham Pranavan. He's OK and I have been seeing him since May 2013 and during my first meeting he said "There is no cure for prostate cancer...." and countless patients refuse to believe this. OK, so there isn't a cure. "How long have I got doc?" and he could not tell me. I said "maybe between 2 and 20years then?" Weeeel, if it began in 2005, but was diagnosed too late in 2009, then I've had it for 13 years.  

Anyway, Pca is something a man might live with for a long time. Remember, a man has 3 enemies, aging, effects of treatments, and effects of diseases. At the moment, the last one is controlled, but not the other two.

 

Had a nice 73km cycle ride today, 23.5kph average, so still doin OK for castrated Olde Bar Stud with stage 4 Pca.

238km for the weak, in last 7 days. Not bad considering last week was like a week in early September, bloomin cold. 

Patrick Turner.

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Patrick Turner
On ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 9:31 AM, Charles (Chuck) Maack said:

The prostate cancer patient on androgen deprivation drugs is confronted with trying to prevent ONJ or osteoprosis WITH these medications. 

Well, that's exactly what I found. My doctors had no answers about how to keep up my bone density, or any idea about how to control jaw necrosis once it had begun. The article in link has some grisly picture of a guy's mouth with a gaping hole in upper jaw and I'd see a few other pics of that sort of thing when I searched online months ago. My lower jaw problem has not got worse. Basically, a man must avoid having too much of these bone drugs, or else its very likely you'll get jaw necrosis. Then just how does a man keep bone density high? Walking is excellent, because each step causes a body reaction to keep bones in good shape, but by the time most men get to 70, they drive everywhere, and have so much arthritis that walking is Royal PIA.  

 

But about 3 years on an Australian ABC TV show Catalyst, they showed a Melbourne clinic where they had old blokes doing a minimum number of jumps over small obstacles each about 150mm high on a walking path, but they had to stop and jump over, not step over these, and the jump and the landing caused a high enough peak pressure to occur in leg joints to trigger the control of BD loss. The show said that it worked for men on ADT for Pca, so here again we see that if a man gets off his arse and stops lazing about eating and drinking to much then he needs far fewer trips to doctor and far fewer drugs. Pca might still kill him, but he gets a better life until it does.

 

I expect that now I have typed that, a thousand groans from old men can be heard around the world and yes, "use it or lose it" seems to be yet another groan producing phrase.

 

The same Melbourne clinic dealt with women after having their chemo. Once the chemo was injected, they got the ladies into a lady-friendly gym and got them raising a sweat, and for many it was a nasty boring horrible shock because for the previous 30 years they'd never raised a sweat but just got feeble, fat, and husbands thought them to be "fuggly", but not one husband had the slightest courage to mention this aloud; but they also were fuggly.

The exercise had a very positive effect on the ladies's ability to handle side effects. She didn't whinge as much, not much of that "Oh poor me with cancer" stuff and was better able to cope with all things. I live alone, and I don't whinge because nobody is there to listen, there is no support, and I sure do not want to become dependant on others sooner when I can make it later.  

I must now shop for more fresh green vegies or I will starve.

And I might yet enjoy another night of being happily alive!

Stay well Charles,

Patrick Turner.  

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Charles (Chuck) Maack

You are a gutsy guy, Patrick, and I admire you for coming right out and speaking your thoughts! ("Gutsy" - showing courage, determination, and spirit).  I am fortunate in having met (through these online forums) many other men having these same attributes.  You, as they, serve as an inspiration to all of us!

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Patrick Turner
4 hours ago, Charles (Chuck) Maack said:

You are a gutsy guy

I stopped defining myself at about 30, because it always led to believing my own bullshit, which IMHO, at 71, I can safely say is a tradgedy for any man. Anyway, when I visit  the local Canberra Hospital I realize yet again I am just a bloke, because I see so many ppl walking past or in wheelchairs, or with a lot more wrong with them than what I have, and some have had a far worse life than I was granted by Nature.

I got through last night OK and I might do some good cycle rides during this week. I often think how selfish I am but I am not pressured by anyone to be more generous or helpful to those with less, or to those who suffer more. They all seem to get by some how, without begging, and that takes guts.

Next week I get blood tests for a doc associated with my Lu177 treats. I might know soon if I have any respite from the ailment, and see if it is worth continuing. It might be, and I don't count my chickens before the eggs hatch. But I sure won't mind another shot of Lu177 if progress is being made. If little progress is being made, I might have to just have another Lu177 anyway, its part of giving it a go.

It is a remarkable fact that any of us are living at this time in a world that has more good will in it than evil doings, and more knowledge to lengthen people's lives, so the wonderment of life is seen by more than those who cannot. I won't live to see much of the future but for those who will, I hope they muddle through better than I have. Patrick Turner.   

 

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